EPS 41. Always Scrolling & Always Available: Digital Boundaries for Burned Out Moms

In today's episode of Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs I'm joined by Kelsey Green, who works at the intersection of community, strategy and accountability. Kelsey helps people stop stalling and start building lives that truly light them up. Today we're talking about something that's such a normalized part of modern day life that so many of us fail to see the connection to burnout for working moms: constant digital availability.

The truth is, you can't feel truly restored, creative, patient or present when your nervous system is always on alert. But when your phone is a key tool for your work, your calendar, your childcare messages, your group chats, your social media breaks, your school emails, your texts from your spouse....essentially your whole life....what are you supposed to do? You can't exactly throw it away or just not have one.

In this episode we talk about:

• How digital habits and expectations amplify the pressure to always be “on”

• Subtle signs that a mom's relationship with her devices is having a negative effect on her energy, focus and relationships

• How to stop feeling guilty for needing space from your screen

• Realistic digital boundaries to help you reclaim your focus and mental clarity, reduce the pressure to always be reachable, and create space for in-person community

• Practical strategies for using technology as a tool without losing yourself along the way

  
  

Find Kelsey at:

Website: www.kelseylgreen.com

Instagram: @kelseylgreen

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelseylgreen

[00:04] Christi Gmyr: Welcome to Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs, the podcast for burned out, career-minded moms who are ready to stop pretending everything's fine and feel like themselves again.

[00:15] I'm your host, Christi Gmyr, burnout coach for moms, licensed therapist and mom of two. And I'm here to help you reclaim your energy, your identity, and your peace of mind.

[00:25] Whether you're lying awake thinking about the 87 things you didn't get done or silently resenting the people you love most,

[00:32] This is your space to feel seen, supported, and not so alone.

[00:36] So grab your coffee, hot, cold or day old, and let's get into it.

[00:47] Hey everybody, it's Christi.

[00:49] Welcome to Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs.[00:53] In today's episode, I'd like to welcome our guest, Kelsey Green.

[00:57] Kelsey works at the intersection of community strategy and accountability,

[01:02] helping people stop stalling and start building lives that truly light them up. She's the creator of Summit in six, a high accountability mastermind and how to build you'd circle a course focused on cultivating meaningful in person connection.

[01:18] So I've invited Kelsey here today so we can talk about digital boundaries because in an age, you know, where people are becoming more and more addicted to their devices on them all the time, you know, so many other things suffer, including our dreams, our focus, our creativity, our work and our relationships.

[01:40] So we are constantly talking about different kinds of boundaries and how important they are for preventing burnout.

[01:48] So I'm hoping for, for today to really talk a bit about again, digital boundaries specifically and have Kelsey share some strategies for,

[01:59] for establishing some of those as part of that, you know, that burnout prevention.[02:03] So, Kelsey, thank you so much for being here today.

[02:07] Kelsey Green: Hey, Christi, thank you so much for having me.

[02:10] Christi Gmyr: Yeah. So do you mind just by starting off by telling us a little bit about yourself, the work that you do, you know, and how you got into all of this.

[02:19] Kelsey Green: Absolutely. Thanks.

[02:20] So my background is in environmental conservation, both my master's and my undergrad.

[02:26] And I worked as a field biologist for a while and then I worked in the nonprofit sector, so doing more,

[02:35] you know, funding programs, working with clients,

[02:39] moving money around.

[02:40] And that was great. There's some amazing work that happens in that field.

[02:46] And at some point I hit what I'm sure some of your listeners have experienced, complete and total burnout.

[02:54] And that looked like a rock bottom in I, I'd say every way.

[02:59] Emotional,

[03:01] mental, physical. I had to have a pretty serious complex surgery.

[03:08] I was in this toxic relationship. I was like drinking too much Wine.

[03:12] Uh, I. And financial, because nonprofits often are not super well paid.

[03:19] So at this point, I launched my consulting practice and I worked with state and federal agencies similar to the work that I was doing in communications,

[03:29] but as a consultant, which of course has its own set of issues.

[03:36] But it was a lot more manageable in terms of my schedule, managing my energy.[03:43] And through this journey, I also came to a place where I understood and every day I'm understanding more. So the importance of digital boundaries.

[03:53] For all the things you mentioned, our creativity, our work, our relationships, our in person community, which is something that I work in now, facilitating and building,[04:04] and that's what I'm talking about today.

[04:07] Christi Gmyr: Fantastic. Well, and then, yeah, for you, for somebody like you especially, I would imagine digital boundaries are incredibly important because you do so much work online as do so many, you know, other people as well.

[04:20] But for you specifically, you know, as somebody who runs a business that is almost entirely online,

[04:27] how have you managed the challenges of needing to be online and also at the same time wanting to protect your own mental health?

[04:36] Kelsey Green: Yeah, thanks, that's a great question.

[04:38] Well, I'll just point out first that,

[04:42] yes,

[04:43] I work in the online space. I'm sure many of your listeners do as well.

[04:47] And what I was finding with clients and friends and,

[04:52] you know, just colleagues is that because people have a business in the online space,

[05:00] they have really released all of their agency.

[05:05] You know, they've sort of kind of just given up their autonomy in terms of what they're doing online.

[05:13] And I guess the great example is, you know, you, you need to post content on Instagram, say,

[05:19] and for your business,

[05:20] and then you spend the next 45 minutes scrolling and Instagram and looking at silly reels and whatever, right?

[05:28] And it's very easy to justify completely unmanaged and unboundaried digital use when you have a business.

[05:38] But it's truly more important than ever, right?

[05:43] And I believe that there is a way for us to focus in and really do the work we need to do and get off of the platforms.

[05:54] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and again, I imagine that that is a really big challenge for a lot of people, you know, and when we were, when I was introducing you a minute ago, we kind of very briefly touched on, you know, why this is an important topic.

[06:08] But I'm wondering if you can just elaborate on that a little bit. You know, specifically when we're thinking about burnout, like why,

[06:17] why do you feel like it is so important to be able to set these boundaries and to really get some distance from, from our devices. You know, how, like, how are you seeing lack of boundaries, lack of digital boundaries playing a role in workout or, I'm sorry, in burnout for,

[06:33] you know, so many. For so many people.

[06:35] Kelsey Green: Yes, thank you. This is a great question because this speaks to the science behind it.

[06:41] So basically, when we're looking at dopamine, right, We've. I don't know about you, but in my,

[06:47] you know, in my algorithm and in my, in my little world, there's a lot of talk about dopamine right now,

[06:53] right? And we only have so much dopamine.

[06:56] So basically what is happening on especially, I'll say, the social media platforms, but also Netflix and, and others,

[07:04] is that they are utilizing the same mechanisms as slot machines for our phones, right? For Facebook, Instagram,

[07:15] whatever. And what this does is creates this almost like fake dopamine foraging,[07:22] where we are utilizing our reserves for things like scrolling.

[07:28] And sometimes when people,

[07:31] they want to, they're. They're feeling burnt out, they're feeling exhausted, they think they need to rest,

[07:36] they say, okay, well, I'm going to hang out,

[07:40] you know, watch Netflix, Scroll.

[07:43] But really that is not rest for your brain. That is,

[07:47] you know, your brain is processing. It's actually working quite hard.

[07:51] And the feeling of wanting to kind of zonk out and do this stuff actually results in you being more exhausted,

[07:59] you know, feeling less rested.

[08:01] I'm sure everyone at this point has seen the research around sleep and how screens are terrible for your sleep right before you try to go to bed. This is probably not new to anyone,

[08:12] but this is so critical to keep in mind because with a population like, let's say,[08:18] working moms who are,

[08:20] you know, really feeling stretched thin, exhausted, burnt out, this is more important,

[08:27] you know, for them than anyone, right?

[08:30] Because the type of rest that your brain needs to not feel all these things does not happen on the platforms.

[08:38] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and when you talk about,[08:41] you know, rest and things like that,

[08:44] you know, people using their screens and maybe not getting the quality sleep and whatnot that maybe they're needing, I'm curious, like,

[08:51] so obviously that's gonna have an effect on them,

[08:54] not just at night where maybe they're trying to fall asleep, you know, fall asleep, but the next day when they're trying to be productive in their lives, productive at home, productive at work,

[09:04] you know, and a lot of people, a lot of, you know, moms, a lot of, you know, people in general are very good at doing the thing, right? They're very,

[09:14] you know, they're high Functioning. They're getting. They're staying on top of things. They're getting all the things done. You know, from the outside perspective, they look like they're just killing it,

[09:23] but inside they're still really having a hard time. Right. And so I'm curious, like, what are some subtle signs that,

[09:29] you know, a mom's relationship with her devices is having a negative effect on things like her energy, like her focus, or even things like her relationships?

[09:39] Kelsey Green: Yeah, that's a good question.

[09:41] Well, I think the first thing that I ask people to.

[09:45] To think about is that compulsive feeling that one might have to check their phone.

[09:53] And I can understand it when I, you know, you. You know, you're caring for other people and they're off doing something else. Your kids are, you know,

[10:05] not within your sight. Say, I get it, but. But the funny thing is that extends to these other periods of time. Right. So you'll just be sitting there with your kids, and there'll be that feeling of wanting to check your phone.

[10:19] Right. And I run these free little challenges. It's called Screen Free Sunday challenge, which is 24 hours off screens.

[10:26] Christi Gmyr: Imagine that.

[10:29] Kelsey Green: Impossible to people. Yeah.

[10:31] And I realized that because I do, you know, I work very hard on setting these digital boundaries, and for me, it's tough. And so I realized it's actually, like, almost impossible for most people because we don't quite realize how integrated screens are into our lives.[10:49] Right. A lot of people at this point are even, like, paying for stuff with their Apple Watch and doing things through their phone. And of course, we don't have a choice in some of that because companies are moving to.

[10:59] To those sorts of payment methods, whatever. But.

[11:03] But I guess the point

 is that feeling of needing to check when there's nothing actually to do, you know, and then Instagram, of course, Facebook, really good at this kind of thing.

[11:14] To check if you're a content creator, check likes and do the analysis. And when. For example, if you do a day without screenshots,

[11:22] the first time I did it,

[11:23] I was literally pacing around my house feeling like there was something I had to do,[11:30] but I had no idea what it was. There's nothing. It was a Sunday. There was nothing to be done, you know,

[11:35] and it was that. It was that compulsion to check the phone.

[11:39] And it becomes very clear when you take that away for.

[11:43] For a day.

[11:45] I'll also note that there's.

[11:48] There is a lot of data about if your phone is within your site. So if you are with your family, if you're trying to do deep work if you're trying to.

[11:57] I'm a writer. If you try, if you're trying to write,

[12:00] if your phone is next to you, even if it's face down,

[12:03] your attention is just more fractured.

[12:06] So one of the clear signs is that you women are having a hard time focusing.[12:13] And I also care a lot about this in terms of in person relationships. If you're trying to connect with someone else right in front of you, whether that be someone you know in your family or, or a friend or whatever,

[12:24] when your phone is visible on the table, even face down,

[12:28] this is really not great for connection because you are just less present, you're just paying less attention.

[12:37] Christi Gmyr: Well, and I'm curious, you know, it's interesting to me listening to you talk about all of this and I'm thinking about,

[12:42] you know, my own experiences with my phone, you know, and I'm also wondering if you've noticed any differences with people just in terms of like, age,

[12:53] generationally. I mean, I'm about to, I'm about to age myself a bit right now. But like, I grew up in a time where we didn't have cell phones. We did not have cell phones were not a thing when I was growing up.[13:05] I got my first cell phone in college.

[13:07] Kelsey Green: Yeah.

[13:07] Christi Gmyr: You know, whereas nowadays so many young people don't know life without it. And so I think about, you know, what you're saying, and I, I feel like my own personal experience is that when I don't have my phone with me, like, let's say I leave it at home by accident when I go somewhere,

[13:25] and I might not notice it right away, but then when I do, and then it's sort of like this feeling like, oh my gosh, like I raised my phone, like I want to have it with me.

[13:33] But right now, for example,

[13:35] I have my phone right next to me. I do have it on do not disturb,

[13:39] as I do for much of the day.

[13:40] But I almost find that there's a sense of like, comfort, just like knowing that it's there and it's available and accessible. But I hear what you're saying. It sounds like what you're saying, though, is for a lot of people having it right there,

[13:54] because they know that it's right there, even if they're not, they don't think they're paying attention to it, still taking a certain amount of their focus.

[14:01] So I'm curious, like, what are your thoughts about that idea of like, age and just when people, what people's experiences with phones were when they were growing Up.[14:10] Kelsey Green: This is a, this is a really interesting question and I think we're, we're maybe similarly aged in that. I do also remember a time before cell phones and I also got my first one in college and I didn't even want to,

[14:23] but because everyone was switching over that it, you know, I was like starting to miss out on stuff.

[14:29] And so.

[14:30] Yeah. And so I, I suppose what's interesting is that to your point. Yes. The young people like big, big struggles. If you. I couldn't even imagine growing up and, and having that be there from the time I was born.

[14:45] Right. So interestingly, we are seeing some young people really start to push back and embrace.

[14:53] Embrace the flip phone again, which is pretty funny.

[14:58] What I, what is also fascinating is that I've heard young people talk about, let's say preteens or teenagers talk about how it feels. They feel the compulsion and they're totally aware of it.

[15:09] They understand it's not great. They're. They,

[15:12] you know, they can see that their mental health is affected. It's very self aware. It's, it's really interesting.

[15:17] But anyway,

[15:19] what's, what's also fascinating is that let's say our parents generation, in my mind there would be a correlation between having grown up,

[15:28] you know, up to whatever age,

[15:31] you know, your 40s, without phones,

[15:35] and then they would, they would have adopted it to a lesser extent. But I'm not finding that to be the case.

[15:42] It seems like there's kind of an interesting thing that's happened with the generation that's 60 plus where they are pretty deep in not. This is of course speaking very generally.

[15:55] There's all kinds of people,

[15:57] but,

[15:58] but I've seen that generation really get kind of sucked into the Facebook rabbit hole.

[16:07] There's a lot of, you know, TV streaming,

[16:10] watching, kind of constant. That's, that's not the case with stuff. Some of our generation and multiple screens at the same time, which is even worse. And this is challenging because this generation might have limited mobility,

[16:24] you know, they might not have quite the same access to community as someone that's,

[16:29] you know, with people all the time because you're a young parent or you're out in the workforce, whatever.

[16:35] So it's, it's tricky, but it's actually especially important for that generation for, for all people of all ages, but that generation to get out into the community.

[16:46] We've seen something called the loneliness epidemic surge in the last 10, 15 years. You probably heard that term.

[16:53] And of course Covid didn't help us.

[16:57] Christi Gmyr: Yeah.

[16:57] Kelsey Green: In this regard but the, the amount of isolation and loneliness has increased along with mental health. And this has basically tracked almost exactly the,[17:11] the rise of the smartphone.

[17:13] Christi Gmyr: Okay. Well, and it's interesting again, you know, just thinking about it in terms of, you know, different ages and different people's experiences based on the time that they're growing up. Now, if we're thinking about specifically again, you know, working moms were probably going to be,

[17:27] I mean that could really be any age. But let's maybe think mid twenties to mid forties. Ish. As just like a general idea.

[17:36] You know, what are,

[17:38] what's maybe one boundary that you see a lot of these women really struggling with the most. And like, why do you think it is that they have a hard, like they do have such a hard time with that particular boundary.

[17:50] Yeah.

[17:50] Kelsey Green: Well, I would say again,

[17:53] just there's things you need to do on your phone and then there's things that you don't need to do. Right.

[17:58] Kind of the basis of it. And the issue is that through the use of the phone for things you do need to do, it really opens that door wide to just being on your phone all the time.[18:11] Christi Gmyr: Right.

[18:11] Kelsey Green: Because of the way that,

[18:13] that our brains work and our species evolved. Right. It's not truly, it's not really a fair fight because they are creating these devices to be so, so, so addictive and to hold our attention as long as possible.

[18:27] And I'll just. As a quick aside,

[18:29] I used to be a little judgmental about these different apps and hacks for managing your, your phone use. Like there's this thing called the RO box, which I know a lot of families use.

[18:40] And it's literally a box.

[18:42] It's a nice looking box. It's like white with a wood lid or whatever.

[18:45] And it charges your phone, so it does that. But you have to pay membership.

[18:49] Oh gosh,

[18:50] monthly or annually to like put your phone in a box.

[18:54] Christi Gmyr: And I feel like I've seen something like that on Shark Tank at one time. It wasn't like a box. It might have been some sort of like a jar or thing, but it was like a similar idea.

[19:02] Yeah.

[19:03] Kelsey Green: And, and I was really, like I said really judgmental about this idea at first because a lot of families were using this. And I don't know if you know Jenna Kutcher, she's an online entrepreneur, but she, her and her husband have like a contest.[19:16] It's like who can get the most ro time with the RO box. And I thought this was so stupid. Like this, you could have a free box that little cardboard box you put on top of your fridge and you could put your phone right in there for free.

[19:29] You don't have to pay a membership.

[19:31] But I've come to change my thoughts around that because basically it's not a fair fight.

[19:38] We're, we're working against big tech, you know, big money,

[19:43] and it's kind of a fight for our, for our brains.

[19:46] And if there's a cool app or hack to,

[19:52] to try to combat this,

[19:54] use it. You know, if you care about your RO score,

[19:58] you know,

[19:59] and that means that your phone is in the box when you're trying to spend time with your family, great, you know, do it, whatever.

[20:06] So I guess in terms of what we're seeing,

[20:10] the struggle, the lack of boundaries is just that when you go from needing to communicate on your phone to just that, opening a door to be on your phone all the time, which is really kind of a,

[20:25] a mushy gray step. It's not black and white sometimes to really examine that.[20:31] And truly I'm, I'm sure you've covered this on your podcast

 a lot, but truly,

[20:36] really putting the phone away when you're with your family, when you're with friends. But also what I think is, is especially important that we don't talk about a lot is having some solitude, time to recharge.

[20:51] Solitude does not mean you're just like a solo body in space,

[20:56] but that you don't have any other ideas coming into your brain. And for me, that also means music that you are actually working with silence and trying to just sit and process the day.

[21:10] Um,

[21:11] you and I, I'm sure, love. I love podcasts. You love podcasts. I can listen to podcasts all day long,

[21:17] but once in a while, turning it off, trying. If you're going for a walk, even if it's a five minute walk, just try to do it in silence to help your brain process everything that's happened throughout the day.

[21:28] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. And actually it's making me think about how. So for me it's time in my car. And I remember one time, it was so long ago it was. I don't remember.

[21:38] It was probably right around the time I started having kids.

[21:41] And I just remember being in my apartment that I lived in at the time. Just thinking about it was like after a workday. I was so this must have been before kids, so.

[21:50] Because I now that I'm thinking about it, but I just remember being so tired and stressed and just noticing all the noise around me, like between like TVs and other people in the building and all these things.

[22:04] And I was thinking about, like, how noisy the world is, and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to test out. I'm just going to try for a little bit of time driving around in my car without my radio in silence.

[22:18] And that was amazing. And I, like, never went back to it. Not to say I don't ever listen to music in my car, but probably about 90, 95% of the time that I'm driving around, I do not even listen to anything.

[22:30] Because to your point, just being in the silence, being able to process it is just.[22:36] It's amazing. It was life changing for me.

[22:39] Kelsey Green: Oh, I love that. I love that example so much. And I had a similar experience where I thought driving is a time to listen to all the audiobooks. Right, like, and learn so much.

[22:49] And I do think there's a time for that. But once in a while,

[22:54] you know, actually, I'd say a lot of the time you can find yourself kind of fighting against, like, you said that, that external noise.

[23:02] And you're almost like,

[23:04] trying to think through things, but then there's this voice that's speaking to you or you. Even music, even ambient music.

[23:11] And every single time I recognize that I'm doing that, I just turn off the thing, turn off the podcast, turn off the music.

[23:20] And then, you know, let's say I'm on, like a long drive, then you. Then you get bored, and then it's like a treat to turn it back on. That's great.

[23:27] But when you notice yourself not really paying attention to the drone of the.[23:33] Whatever's going on, just turn it off.

[23:36] I love that.

[23:37] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and one of the things that I'm also thinking about is.

[23:42] So one of the things I talk to a lot of moms about is who are maybe struggling with some of these boundaries is we. We talk about, you know, putting to your point, putting your phone away, having your set work hours, having your set family time, things like that.

[23:57] And if they need to, maybe even turning off notifications on their phone so they're not playing as drawn or tempted to check those things.

[24:04] But there are a lot of people who really, you know, feel completely dependent on their phone at work and in family life. You know, I'm specifically thinking about people where, like, say, at their jobs, the culture and the expectation is that they just.

[24:19] They have to always be available,

[24:22] you know, and that can really be a struggle.

[24:24] And so I'm curious, like, do you have any thoughts about ways to establish Boundaries. For those people who really feel like they can't just turn their phone off, put it away.

[24:35] Kelsey Green: This is a great question. And I will just be fully transparent that if you're in a job where that is the expectation and that's the culture,

[24:45] you're probably not going to have an easy time setting boundaries. Right. And I, I just want to recognize that first and foremost because,

[24:53] you know, you could lose your job if you're not available. Right. So, and I've been in jobs like that where there was just no boundaries. And I, and I hate to admit that those were nonprofits because I want to believe that that's different than like a corporate environment.

[25:08] But no, the deadlines would be Sunday by midnight, things like that. Not 5pm on Friday, Sunday by midnight. Right. And so the implication is you might be working at 11pm on a Sunday, you know,

[25:21] or a Saturday, whatever, all weekend. So the point is, if you're in a job like that,[25:28] I, I think it's, I think it's really terrible to never be able to put any boundaries around your phone and just have to answer the phone or have to answer emails at any point in the day.

[25:40] And I, I truly think people should,

[25:42] should look at, at moving out of those kinds of workplaces.

[25:48] Now.

[25:49] Christi Gmyr: I, oh, go ahead.

[25:50] Kelsey Green: But I, but I, but. So if you do have the ability to set boundaries, I will say it's pretty tough if you haven't done it yet.

[25:58] But one of the terms that I heard. So if you have, I have my own business, I have clients,

[26:03] and now I literally write that into the contract.

[26:06] Right?

[26:07] Christi Gmyr: Oh, wow.

[26:07] Kelsey Green: That I need, that I practice deep work,

[26:12] which means that if I'm, you know, I bill clients for certain clients every 15 minutes.[26:17] And gosh, you know, if I, if I were hiring a consultant, I would want to know that they were focusing on me for that entire time that they're billing for.

[26:27] Right. Like attorneys do. And so usually they are amenable to this conceptually.[26:34] And then it takes a little bit of training.

[26:37] And I heard someone that practices digital minimalism call it strategic negligence,[26:44] which is where even if you can respond to a last minute urgent call or request, that you try to create a little bit of space in your business with your clients to help them understand that you need some lead time, that you have working hours,

[27:00] you know, that you only really answer texts or calls during that time. And honestly, that's, that is a pretty painful process,

[27:08] but in terms of your mental sanity,

[27:12] a pretty important one.

[27:13] Christi Gmyr: Well, but also to your point, is that you know, yes, you're. There are some work environments where that absolutely is the expectation. And to your point,[27:23] if,

[27:24] if you're not constantly available, maybe you are at risk of losing your job. And so those are the kinds of jobs where I wouldn't necessarily say you have to move out of them, but I do think that there's those situations.

[27:35] It's important to really be reflecting on what feels most important to you, how you're being affected by things, your values, all of those kinds of things, to decide to decide if, if moving out or making a change is right for you or not.

[27:47] But to your point, also is a lot of times there can be this fear around setting boundaries or this assumption that because everybody else is available all the time, I have to be available all the time too, when maybe that's not entirely the case.

[28:04] And so to your point, maybe starting off small and starting to kind of establish boundaries in a way that feels safer, lower risk,

[28:14] testing it out, seeing how it goes,[28:17] and then you're kind of going from there. And that gives you the opportunity to not only see, okay, can I actually establish these boundaries? But to your point, you're also managing expectations for the other people, your boss, your coworkers, you know, whoever else might be having these expectations.[28:34] Kelsey Green: Yeah,

[28:35] yeah, exactly. And I just, I'll just echo what you said, which is that, yes, you should evaluate that for your, for yourself. And I guess from a, from studying the effects of,

[28:47] of unmitigated digital use and constant notifications on your brain, I feel like it's just really challenging for one's mental health and especially if you have kids and you're, and you're trying to be fully present.

[29:00] So, yeah, I didn't mean to suggest, like, you definitely need to leave,

[29:04] but I love what you said about values. And basically for any type of digital use, the question is,

[29:11] does this support a core value of yours?

[29:15] And if a core value of yours is wealth and, and you know, and,

[29:24] and like career success, then maybe having a very high pressure job where you need to take calls in the middle of the night, you know, or if you value, if you're, if you're a neurosurgeon or you're saving the world from terrorism, whatever, then maybe that's,[29:39] that's different. But otherwise, you know, it's, it's interesting to question your values and say whatever you're doing online, whatever types of allowances you have for notifications coming in for being interrupted,

[29:54] you know, is that supporting what you really want in the world or, or not, right? For your own life.

[30:00] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. I agree with that a hundred percent. And you know, and we're really talking right now about,[30:05] you know,[30:06] establishing boundaries at work and really exploring,[30:09] you know, our values around work. I'm also curious about, you know, home. So what are some examples of what some digital boundaries might look like specifically when it comes to our home lives?

[30:22] Kelsey Green: Yeah, so I can tell you about what I do and,

[30:25] and then, you know, obviously people would modify this based on,

[30:29] on their desires and what is possible for them. But from 7pm to 7am I'm trying to have no screens on.

[30:38] I go to bed pretty early. So if you go to bed at midnight, that's probably a way too long of a stretch, but basically 12 hours. And I'll just say, I guess this is, this is off my phone.

[30:48] So I literally put my phone away at a site,[30:51] but I have a breakthrough collar of my mom or my stepdad. So if there's an emergency, they can still break through the Do Not Disturb. Like if you have an iPhone,

[30:59] that's easy to do that setting. I don't know about Android,

[31:02] so basically I know that if there's an emergency, it'll break through, but otherwise the phone is out of sight.

[31:07] On do not disturb from 7pm to 7am now, of course, if I have to catch an early flight or, you know, there is a critical emergency situation with a client, like there were some wildfires here in Washington state, that's different.

[31:21] So I'm talking about most days and then in the morning,

[31:25] you know, I, I get up about five and I'm doing some work in the morning, so I do use my computer.

[31:31] But the deal is I'm doing,

[31:33] I'm trying to launch into a deep work project. You want to leverage your brain at its most powerful time. For me, that's first thing in the morning.

[31:42] So as much deep work as I can do,

[31:44] writing, whatever, first thing is great.[31:46] But the nice thing about the,

[31:49] the no screens for 12 hours, I will say that's,

[31:52] that has li. Especially at night, like we talked about, that has literally changed my sleep in a way that I never thought possible.

[32:00] Like,

[32:01] like sleeping an average of seven and a half hours a night, eight hours a night, you know, sometimes like almost nine. It's.

[32:09] It. I, I was, I thought I was an insomniac before and I was drinking a lot more wine at night, I will say too. So that has helped,

[32:16] but it has, it has made a remarkable difference in my ability to sleep. And then of course,

[32:22] that has impacted positively my mental health.

[32:25] My ability to focus and do work in the world. So that's one way. The other way is, I think, something you mentioned, which is not having your notifications on unless you know you're in a situation where you're waiting for something like to go pick up your kids or whatever.

[32:40] But otherwise,

[32:41] for Instagram and things or email,

[32:44] there is just no reason,

[32:46] unless again, you're in a job,

[32:48] like we talked about, where you have to respond, there's just no reason to have notifications on, in my opinion.

[32:54] And what I like to do is batch all of my.

[32:58] All of my texting and whatever things I need to do on the apps. So I'll set a timer. Like, let's say it's. You can set it for as long as you want.

[33:06] Let's say it's an hour. Set it for an hour if you have a free hour.

[33:10] And that's when you would do all the responding, all the party planning,

[33:14] checking the apps. I have a Whoop strap, which means I don't have a screen on here. It's a fitness tracker. But there's a cool app and there's so people apps.

[33:21] I just want to look at the Whoops, the Whoop app. You know what I mean? So batching all of your use, your digital use into a certain amount of time, and then when the timer goes off,

[33:30] you know, you're done.

[33:33] Christi Gmyr: Well, and even as you're talking about these apps, you know, it's. One of the things I'm thinking about is. Brings me back to something that you had said earlier when you were talking about the box thing.

[33:41] I forgot what it's called, but in how you were initially against it and now you are more in support of it because we're basically fighting an uphill battle. And it just, it makes me think about, like, yes, it's.

[33:52] It's so important to use the tools that are available to us. This idea of, you know, working smarter, not harder, you know, if they're available to us and they make our lives easier, you know, why not?

[34:03] You know, they can really make a big difference.

[34:06] So one thing that I'm wondering about is myths, right? Because people, a lot of times people have specific ideas around,

[34:16] you know, digital boundaries. And I'm just wondering, are there any myths that you wish more people understood when it comes to this? Any, like, misconceptions or anything like that?

[34:30] Kelsey Green: Well, I will say that,

[34:34] you know, we just talked about the hacks and things.

[34:38] I will say that one of the ideas I'm exploring, it's not necessarily a Myth. But one of the ideas I'm exploring is that the hacks and the tricks and things like,

[34:53] you know, where your phone will turn itself off or, you know, you get kicked out of the app or whatever,

[34:59] I think that these are great in the short term, but one of the ideas I'm exploring through,

[35:04] there's this book, you know, Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. Great book.

[35:10] Is that until you really change your ethos around the digital use,

[35:18] it's going to be probably really challenging to manage.

[35:23] Manage it. Right.

[35:24] And I just mentioned this because I,

[35:27] I've seen.

[35:28] I, you know, there are so many cool tools out there,

[35:31] but I have seen people be really upset and frustrated with themselves because the apps and the hacks and the tricks just aren't working and it isn't addressing the.[35:43] The underlying issue.

[35:46] Sort of like this, this is a little bit of a serious example, but sort of like if you're trying to manage your drinking,

[35:54] you know, and you find yourself drinking a bottle of wine every night, and you're like, okay, I'm gonna,

[36:01] I'm gonna, like, implement some kind of hack or trick to only have one glass of wine a night, you know,

[36:08] but. But it doesn't really address that compulsion. It doesn't really address the ethos,

[36:13] I suppose. I guess I'm speaking to the identity approach, which is,

[36:19] you know, maybe you want to be the kind of person that.

[36:23] That only drinks in the weekends. Right. And so your identity shift would be,

[36:27] I'm the kind of person that. That doesn't drink on weeknights.

[36:31] Christi Gmyr: Right.

[36:32] Kelsey Green: And so I, I bring this in because I think that that's probably a better approach for the long term is shifting your identity around your phone.

[36:43] And so it could be something like,

[36:45] I'm not a person who scrolls Instagram when I'm with my family.

[36:50] Right. Or whatever you want the identity to be, because the, the apps and tricks and things will work in the short term, but it's probably going to be, like you said, an uphill battle.

[37:03] It's not really a fair fight. It's kind of like we're in this. This battle for our actual brains and our relationships right now.[37:11] And so creating that ethos around it is going to be important.

[37:15] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and also,

[37:18] you know, as I'm listening to you talk, one of the things I'm thinking about, too, is just this idea that,

[37:23] yes, try trying to do that, work around that, and also being patient with ourselves and recognizing that, you know,

[37:32] any kind of behavior change,

[37:34] you know, it takes time, it takes work. Doesn't happen overnight. And those are wonderful things to work towards. And also just giving ourselves a little bit of grace. If we don't just say, hey, I'm only gonna, you know, use my phones this particular day and particular time.

[37:49] And then maybe it feels like a struggle at first because it can be a struggle for a lot of people to make those kinds of changes.

[37:54] Kelsey Green: Oh, absolutely, Christy. I think that's a really important point too. And that is,

[37:59] is setting up those little baby steps ahead of time as you adopt a new identity. So let's say if you, if you typically scroll in bed, you know, is just like, can you reduce that scrolly habit just by like a couple minutes,

[38:17] you know, like really stepping it back in, like tiny increments.

[38:22] Sort of like the approach where if you want to start running,

[38:26] you know, like your body literally might not be ready to go run five miles, you're gonna like pull a tendon, you know,

[38:32] so the first step is like, and there's these,

[38:36] these theories about creating, I mean, teeny, teeny, tiny baby steps. Like, the first step is putting your shoes out by the door.

[38:44] That's all you have to do the first day. The next step would be like putting your shoes and socks out right? Then like eventually putting them on,

[38:52] then just going outside, then coming back in. And like, once you're able to commit to those tiny, teeny, teeny little steps, then you of course, start, like, then I walk down the driveway and back, and then the next week I'm like walking around the block and you know what I mean?

[39:05] So I think that's absolutely a great way to implement these digital boundaries too, because like we've said many times at this point it's going to be challenging because your brain is now kind of wired to do this.

[39:18] Right,

[39:19] right, right.

[39:20] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[39:22] So,

[39:23] you know, I'm sure we could probably continue this conversation all day, but I don't want to take up too much more of your time. So I'm curious, like, where, where could listeners go if they wanted to learn more about this?

[39:33] Where could they go to learn more about you and your work?

[39:35] Kelsey Green: Yep. So my website is Kelsey L. Green. L, like the color green without an E, just like the color. Kelseylgreen.com.

[39:44] that's my same handle on Instagram and LinkedIn, so you can find me there.[39:48] And I'll just note that I run a mastermind for women that has three pillars and one of them is called Focus,

[39:56] which is code word for setting some digital boundaries. And that's a six month container Mastermind for women that are trying to do a super hard thing like finish their book is a really common one, launch their business, et cetera.

[40:08] So.

[40:09] Christi Gmyr: Okay, great.

[40:10] And I will, of course, include that in the show notes, so everybody who is interested in that will be able to find that pretty easily

[40:17] So before we wrap up for today, if you could leave the listeners, you know, with one final message, one final piece of advice with,

[40:25] you know, as it relates to these digital boundaries and. Or burnout,

[40:30] what would it be?

[40:32] Kelsey Green: Absolutely. Yep.

[40:33] The piece of advice that I leave people with is that there's a lot of things going on in your life. I'm sure there's a lot of things to address, a lot of things to focus on, a lot of things demanding your attention and your effort.

[40:47] And I will just say that this is very important,

[40:52] but it will also help with all of those other areas. Right. Your ability to be present with your family, your ability to focus your creativity.

[41:02] The. The deep work that you can do is going to be benefited by trying to put some of these boundaries in place.

[41:09] So the takeaway message is that it's absolutely worth it. Your brain is worth it.[41:14] And for the long term, this is going to be very beneficial for. For your life and.

[41:19] And for those around you.

[41:22] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[41:24] Well, so thank you again, you know, I think, for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time, you know, and I think that this has been really great. And again,

[41:32] technology is just obviously such a big part of our lives nowadays, and it's really only going to give more. So, you know, so that's really such an important topic.

[41:42] And so I think a lot of people, you know, listening are really going to find this valuable, and I think that that's great. And so, and as always, for the moms who are listening, if any of this does resonate, if you found any of these things that we talked about today to be valuable,

[41:54] to be helpful,

[41:56] you know, please, you know, feel free to look up Kelsey and the work that she does. You know, please share this podcast with any other moms that you know, could use some additional support,

[42:05] because, as always, we are all in this together.