EPS 38. When Money Feels Like Too Much: Why Financial Stress Hits Harder When You're Already Burned Out

In this episode of Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs we're talking about something that doesn't get nearly enough attention – the relationship between financial stress and burnout. I'm joined by financial coach and author Adam Koren, who shares a refreshingly compassionate approach to money. Adam doesn't rely on shame, strict rules or telling people to “just try harder.” Because the truth is, as stressful as money management can be, when you're already burned out it just hits harder....and relying on these methods just isn't going to help. When your nervous system is maxed out, even simple financial decisions can feel like too much.

In this conversation we explore how to take the pressure off, ease the guilt and start approaching your finances in a way that feels supportive instead of stressful.

We talk about:

• Why financial stress hits harder when you're already burned out

• The connection between money avoidance, shame and emotional exhaustion

• Some of the biggest myths about money that moms need to unlearn

• What a gentler, compassionate approach to money looks like in real life

• How to start feeling more in control of your finances without adding more to your plate

• Simple, realistic ways to reduce money stress when you don't have the bandwidth

Adam reminds us that you don't need more discipline and you don't need more pressure. You need support, compassion and a way forward that actually works for you.

Find Adam at:

Website: www.adamkoren.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/akoren

Instagram: @adamkorencoaching

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamkoren/

Book: Gentle Money: A Compassionate Guide to Overcoming Financial Stress

[00:04] Christi Gmyr: Welcome to Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs, the podcast for burned out, career-minded moms who are ready to stop pretending everything's fine and feel like themselves again.

[00:15] I'm your host, Christi Gmyr, burnout coach for moms, licensed therapist and mom of two. And I'm here to help you reclaim your energy, your identity, and your peace of mind.

[00:25] Whether you're lying awake thinking about the 87 things you didn't get done or silently resenting the people you love most,

[00:32] This is your space to feel seen, supported, and not so alone.

[00:36] So grab your coffee, hot, cold or day old, and let's get into it.

[00:47] Hey everybody, it's Christi.

[00:49] Welcome to Overcaffeinated and Out of Effs.

[00:53] In today's episode, I'd like to welcome our guest, Adam Koren.

[00:57] Adam helps people who don't like dealing with their money. He has been coaching for more than 20 years and brings care, clarity and sanity to personal finances,[01:07] especially for those who experience avoidance, shame and confusion.

[01:11] He's the author of Gentle Money, a compassionate guide to overcoming Financial Stress.

[01:17] He wrote it to offer people a kinder way into financial well being and to show that real change is possible without pressure or shame.

[01:26] His deepest aim is to help readers and clients feel more grounded, confident, and connected to themselves around money.

[01:33] So I've invited Adam here today to talk a little bit about his work. You know, to talk about money and really how a kinder, more realistic approach can reduce stress and to create breathing room for what really matters.

[01:50] So,

[01:51] Adam, thank you so much for being here today.

[01:54] Adam Koren: My pleasure. Thanks for inviting me.

[01:57] Christi Gmyr: Can you maybe just start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got into your work as a financial coach?

[02:04] Adam Koren: Yeah, happy to.

[02:06] I. If. If you had told me 10, 20 years ago that I'd be doing this,

[02:11] I would. I wouldn't have believed you. I. I didn't care about money. It wasn't my focus. I never,

[02:16] you know, read the Wall Street Journal or the stock market's not really my thing.[02:22] So I'm a very unusual financial professional in that way. My, my passion has always been around personal development, growth, transformation, all that stuff.

[02:32] And what I discovered is that this happens to be an area where people really suffer, clearly,

[02:41] and where my particular blend of skills can really make a difference. Where I love going deep with people. I love my backgrounds in counseling as well as coaching.

[02:54] And so I love the depth.

[02:57] And at the same time, I also love the practical, like getting on top of things,

[03:03] like eliminating stress, like,

[03:06] so usually the people helping with financial stuff, it's either like mostly financial advisors,

[03:17] things like that, where they're focused on the money, they're focused on the numbers,

[03:21] the future accounts, all that stuff.

[03:24] But if there are more emotional or personal elements to it, it's usually not their focus.

[03:31] And then therapists, the opposite. They're like, very available and skilled with the deeper emotional, the family aspects,

[03:41] but they're. They're not going to sit with someone and look at a spreadsheet or like, that kind of detail with numbers is usually not where therapists go.

[03:50] So I mentioned that because I discovered I actually love doing both of those things and the. And that how the emotional and the practical can really fit together with money.

[03:59] Christi Gmyr: So you really just sort of like blend the two together, which is amazing because to your point, I mean, you have finance people who aren't as good to be, wanting to be as concerned about some of these emotional components that you're talking about and, and vice versa with, with therapists.

[04:14] So, yeah, I would imagine people go to one or the other and they get one or the other, and you're really just combining the two together.

[04:21] Well, and you had talked about, you know, eliminating or reducing stress,

[04:25] which, you know, that's why we're here, you know, because the people who are listening are stressed or if they're not to the point of burnout already, you know,

[04:36] you know, working moms. And so I'm curious,

[04:39] what patterns do you notice specifically among the. Any working moms that you work with when it comes to money? When it comes to money. Stress, avoidance, those kinds of things?

[04:52] Adam Koren: Yeah. Well, first of all, there's just a lot of pressure.

[04:56] Often with the moms I've worked with, they're balancing not just working and parenting, but also sometimes aging parents,

[05:05] partners,

[05:07] and community.

[05:08] Like, they're just balancing so many things,

[05:11] and there just is so little time or bandwidth to put attention on finances. So whatever happens regarding money, it's usually kind of quick. And let me take care of this as soon as, like, as quickly as I can.

[05:27] So, yeah, just not having bandwidth can. Can make things challenging with that. And of course, there are benefits to not worrying about things so much. I'm just gonna handle it in this way.

[05:38] But it can cause issues with other things.

[05:41] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

[05:43] Well, and so when you talk about. It can cause issues with other things.

[05:50] Well, for starters, I guess I'm curious if you can elaborate on that a little bit more. Like, what are some of the specific challenges and problems that you are seeing, you know, with this Population of women.

[06:01] Adam Koren: Yeah,

[06:02] well,

[06:06] so I, I think one of the main things is that moms in this culture are just expected to be super living.

[06:13] They're expected to handle everything.

[06:17] And so,

[06:20] and when there's any kind of burnout that can just make everything harder,

[06:25] where motivation is more challenging,

[06:30] but bills still need to be paid. So that can really be hard.

[06:35] Christi Gmyr: Well, yeah, no, absolutely. And I'm also thinking about, you know, so many of you know, the women who are listening, you know, they,

[06:47] they're smart, they're capable,

[06:50] yet they still struggle with this. And a lot of them,

[06:53] they maybe feel shame or they feel self judgment around money.

[06:59] And I'm curious, like why,

[07:01] why you think that might be? Like why, what do you think is the case around that?[07:05] Adam Koren: Yeah,

[07:07] yeah, it's true. A lot of shame, a lot of self judgment.

[07:11] So one thing I see with everyone I work with is that in our culture we just don't train people around finances.

[07:21] So some people grew up with some kind of support in that way, but most people did not.

[07:30] And I, I literally had a client tell me that when she asked her dad a money question, he told her,

[07:37] your husband is going to take care of that.

[07:40] Christi Gmyr: No.

[07:41] Adam Koren: So I think that's more.

[07:44] But that's not that common anymore. But it kind of, there's still many women I've seen still carry some version of that. Some version of this isn't my realm really.

[07:58] And yet often they find that they have to handle things and we all need to deal with finances in some ways.

[08:06] So,

[08:08] so we don't get any training in it. And I just think the cultural expectation. Oh, the other thing is that just about everyone I talk with about finances says some version of, to themselves,

[08:20] I should know what I'm doing with my finances. I'm an adult.

[08:26] But if you stop. So first of all, if you're listening, ask yourself, do I think I should know what I'm doing with my finances? Because I'm an adult.

[08:34] I find just about everyone thinks that.

[08:36] And then you can ask yourself,

[08:39] why do I have that expectation?

[08:44] Like I, you know, because we don't get training and we don't talk about it culturally.

[08:50] It. I, I think that's so crazy that, that we all have that expectation that we should know what we're doing because we didn't get trained.

[08:59] But I, anyway, I think that's where a lot of the shame and self judgment can come from. We think we should know what we're doing.

[09:05] And we, we don't. We, you know, we're, we, we're all kind of left to fend for ourselves in figuring out how to handle our finances.

[09:13] Christi Gmyr: Well, and to your point, you know, we are all sort of taught certain things, you know,

[09:18] maybe not around money specifically, but we as, you know, as we're growing up, as we're moving through our lives, we are given certain messages. You know, we start to create certain expectations around the money, around what we should be able to do, what we shouldn't be able to do,[09:33] those sorts of things. And to your point, like, why, if you've never been taught it before,

[09:37] why would you automatically know that there's not like a switch that just magically flips and suddenly you just know all these things because you're an adult. Right. If you haven't learned them,

[09:46] you know,

[09:47] why would you be expected to know some of those things? I'm curious. So, like, what are some of the.

[09:52] What are some of the myths, like, or what are some of the biggest myths are, you know, around money that maybe moms have learned that they need to unlearn?

[10:03] Adam Koren: Oh, I love that question.

[10:06] Yeah.

[10:08] I think the main one is that it's complicated.

[10:14] It's not that complicated.

[10:16] Stuff related to investing and retirement can be,

[10:20] and I think some of it is unnecessarily complicated. But when it comes to personal finances, like spending, budgeting, debt,

[10:30] saving, all of that stuff,

[10:32] it's really pretty straightforward.

[10:35] It does take a little bit more time and attention than most people pay to it to really kind of get it handled,

[10:44] to really know what's going on

.[10:46] And I think that's why there can be a little bit of a sense of vagueness and mystery and confusion and fog about it is, is because it. It. It does take to.

[10:55] To really be on top of it. It takes a little bit of time and attention,[11:00] but I think not as much as most people think it will.

[11:03] Christi Gmyr: Okay, well. And so with that,

[11:06] with that being said, I mean,

 I would imagine that time is one of the challenges, you know, that a lot of busy moms face, you know, But. But you're also saying that maybe it's not going to take as much time as maybe they would expect.

[11:19] Are there other challenges that you see with them? Like, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that busy moms do face when it comes to.

[11:27] When it comes to this, when it comes to getting a better handle on their finances?[11:32] Adam Koren: Like what. What are some of the challenges?

[11:34] Christi Gmyr: Yeah.

[11:35] Adam Koren: Is that the question?

[11:35] Christi Gmyr: Yeah. Okay.

[11:39] Adam Koren: Yeah. I mean, just. Just making the time is one and another is.

[11:45] Sometimes conversations with partners can be really challenging,

[11:51] can be stressful.

[11:54] It can,

[11:55] you know, it can bring up the differences in kind of money, blueprints or,

[12:04] you know, everyone.

[12:05] Even with similar kind of class backgrounds, we all have our own kind of unique take on money. It's never the same with a partner.

[12:16] And so finding a way to harmonize, to get on the same page can take some conversations.

[12:25] And part of the challenge with that is money conversations,

[12:29] as y' all probably know, can get really charged.

[12:33] So finding a way to really listen to our partners and to really share what's really true for us in a way that's non inflammatory can be useful.

[12:47] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and I'm also curious. I mean, to your point, the conversations around money can be very charged and they can be very difficult.[12:58] Listening, I think, is such an important point that you made because I think a lot of times when we talk about communication, people automatically think about what am I going to say, how am I going to say it?

[13:09] And those are all important. But there's another piece of it too, that we also need to be open to and really hearing what the other person is saying. You know, you talked about some of the challenges that, you know, partners can face when they are trying to have these conversations.[13:24] And so for, you know, a mom who is maybe wanting to start these conversations but is concerned about potential conflict, you know, or tension,[13:35] what are some other suggestions you have in terms of ways that maybe they can communicate about money in a way that's going to reduce that conflict?

[13:47] Adam Koren: Yeah,

[13:48] yeah. So busy moms are not used to asking for help in general, I find,

[13:55] so. And there's a particular kind of asking for help that almost automatically elicits positive support.

[14:05] And it's not easy,

[14:06] but it's contacting our vulnerability and our humility.

[14:14] And when that's really there, as opposed to some version of like,

[14:18] I need help and you really should have already provided it,

[14:22] or some version of should,

[14:26] or like, you should really be doing this thing for me that,

[14:31] you know, is more likely to elicit some kind of defensiveness or pushback.

[14:36] But if it's, but if it's true humility,

[14:39] and I'm at my wit's end and I really need you to step up here,

[14:44] that's. It's more likely to bring forth your partner's best.

[14:50] Christi Gmyr: Well, and also when you talk about coming into a conversation saying, you should have done this for me,

[14:56] you know, the, the word should, I mean, that's such a, that is such a charged word in itself because it impl.

[15:03] Sort of an expectation And I think one of the things about money is that to your point, people have different ideas about it, people manage it differently, people have idea, different ideas of ways that they want to manage it.

[15:14] And so coming into a conversation with this idea of this is what you should be doing,

[15:20] rather than this awareness that maybe there is more than one way and then that could work,

[15:28] you know, and so maybe just sort of coming into the conversation with more open mindedness, you know, you talk about humility, you know, just sort of,

[15:37] again,

[15:39] being willing to have more of a collaboration than I need you to be the one to do things differently kind of thing.

[15:48] Adam Koren: Right.

[15:49] And I wanted to add that one of the things that we can ask for from that kind of vulnerable place is a conversation about it. It's not necessarily just, can you do this for me?

[16:01] But hey, can we talk about this? Can we talk about,

[16:05] you know, summer camp and how we're gonna pay for that? For example,

[16:12] those like to, to set up, well,

[16:16] a challenging conversation,

[16:18] you know, can really pave the way for that going well.

[16:22] Christi Gmyr: Well, and you know, the way that you even just said that, what I'm hearing is,

[16:27] you know,

[16:28] getting them on board, getting their buy into even having the conversation to begin with. Right. So again, instead of just saying like, we need to talk about this. Yeah,[16:36] so they're agreeing to it,

[16:38] you know, so they're coming into it with this mindset of yes, we can and we're going to talk about this.

[16:44] Adam Koren: I love that. Just the difference between we need to talk about this and can we talk about this? Yeah, that feels, that feels actually pretty significant.

[16:54] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, yeah.

[16:55] Adam Koren: Sets it up differently.

[16:56] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Well, and one of the things that I think is just really important to keep in mind for,

[17:01] I mean, I say this a lot, but I imagine it applies here too, is just paying attention to language. You know, words are powerful, words are important. You know, sometimes just making that one shift, you know, you know, can really make a difference in terms of how,[17:15] how the message is communicated. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about,

[17:21] you know, your book. So you've written this book, it's called Gentle Money.

[17:25] Can you talk about that a little bit? And what,

[17:28] what does a gentle approach look like in practice?

[17:33] Adam Koren: Yeah, thanks for asking.

[17:35] I've been on a lot of podcasts in the past, but this is the first since I,

[17:39] since the book came out.

[17:41] So I'm excited to,

[17:43] to talk about it and have it finally be available after years of working on it.

[17:47] Christi Gmyr: So.

[17:48] Adam Koren: Yeah, what does a gentle approach look like?

[17:51] So A lot of it is about changing kind of the scripts,

[17:58] the things that we tell ourselves about money. Like you asked about shame and self judgment.

[18:04] So the more we can unwind some of that and come to just accept where we're at makes a huge difference.

[18:14] And some of that is thinking critically about our culture's messages about money.[18:20] And one of the things I talk about in the book is the double messages that are all over our culture around money,

[18:28] such as,

[18:31] you should be responsible,

[18:34] you should know what you're doing,

[18:36] you shouldn't have any debt,

[18:39] all of those things.

[18:40] But on the other hand,

[18:42] here's a credit card,

[18:44] tip your server 25%. Like,

[18:48] you're not coming on. You're not coming to that weekend getaway. Like,

[18:52] why not?

[18:53] Like there, there's pressure on both sides to be responsible and be fun and, and that can be crazy. Making to feel like we're failing on either or both.

[19:08] So, so that's, that's one thing.

[19:12] Yeah. Another is like I was saying that there's no reason we should already know what we're doing.

[19:18] And I get that it's hard to be gentle with ourselves around money when we're stressed out about it and we're burnt out.

[19:24] But when we,

[19:26] if we find a way to talk to ourselves with gentleness, with.

[19:30] With acceptance for where we are and where our money is,

[19:34] everything becomes easier to face.

[19:38] And it's just harder when we're hard on ourselves,

[19:41] when we're coming from the place of like, ah, I can't believe all this debt I have or whatever it is,

[19:48] it just,

[19:50] it makes it harder to deal with.

[19:53] It actually lowers our bandwidth and our capacity to bring creativity, to bring solutions, to ask for help. The more we have that kind of shoulding voice,

[20:05] the harder it is. So, so by being gentle, it's not,

[20:09] it's not just that it feels better. It actually makes us more equipped to handle our challenges well.

[20:17] Christi Gmyr: And you talk about, you know,

[20:20] taking this kinder,

[20:22] more realistic approach to money as a way of, you know, reducing stress. And so when you talk about,

[20:28] you know, this more realistic approach, you're really, what you're saying is to be honest with yourself about where you're at and work towards really towards this place of acceptance, if I'm understanding that right.

[20:41] Adam Koren: Yeah. So stress comes from uncertainty.

[20:45] And some of that uncertainty is just life. You know, if your kid is sick,

[20:51] you know, you can do some things about that, but your kid is just gonna be sick for however long they're sick.

[20:57] If your parent is aging or struggling in Some way.

[21:03] Again, there are some things you can do, but then there are other things that you just can't do about that.

[21:08] But with money,

[21:10] there are quite a few things that we can do about it. And so if you really don't have the bandwidth for it,

[21:18] no problem.

[21:19] Just do your best and handle things as needed.

[21:23] And there are times in life when we just have to deal with our finances. It's not optional for whatever reason it comes up to, like, I gotta handle this now.

[21:35] And when that's the case,

[21:37]

 there are definitely things you can do to get a handle on it, like figuring out how much you tend to spend monthly,

[21:44] figuring out if you've got a few different big purchases coming up.

[21:49] Like,

[21:50] like figuring out roughly what those amounts are and how and when you're going to pay for it. That takes a little bit of like figuring out and writing down and perhaps talking with a partner or family.

[22:03] But these are things that through a little work can, can bring some of the uncertainty down to, to a more manageable level.

[22:13] Christi Gmyr: Well, and one of the other things I'm wondering about, you know, you had talked before about these conflicting messages that we get in society.

[22:20] Adam Koren: Right.

[22:20] Christi Gmyr: So be responsible and here's a credit card come on this trip, all of those sorts of things,

[22:26] you know, and I,

[22:27] I'm wondering what your thoughts are. You know, I,

[22:31] I'm wondering if a lot of people struggle with this idea that it is okay to say no when it comes to spending money, you know, saying no to that location, saying no to that,

[22:42] whatever the thing might be,

[22:45] in an effort to,

[22:47] I don't know, to keep up, in an effort to provide their kids with the lives that again, they think they should provide for them. You know, all of those sorts of things.

[22:54] I don't know, what are your thoughts about that?

[22:57] Adam Koren: I love that you brought that up.

[22:59] Yeah. The word no can be so challenging to say, especially when there's,

[23:06] there's some, some expectation from peers or a partner or,

[23:11] or a family member for you to show up, for you to say yes, for you to buy the thing or for your kid who wants the thing.

[23:20] So.

[23:21] Yeah, and that can be such a,

[23:24] actually such a self caring, self loving thing to do is to, is to say no to the things that aren't right for you or your family for whatever reason.

[23:35] Either it's too much, too expensive or you know, there's, there's tightness in the budget and you just need to say no.

[23:43] Yeah, I just, I just want to really encourage that if you have a sense that no is the right thing.

[23:51] It's totally okay to say no.

[23:53] And in fact,

[23:55] sometimes the best thing.

[23:57] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. And again to your point, you know, just reiterating that it is okay, you know, I think it's something that a lot of times people feel guilty about or they struggle with because of this idea that maybe they're doing something wrong or it's something that they should be saying yes to.

[24:11] And I think that it's really important to separate wanting to say yes to something versus really feeling like we should be saying yes to something. Like it's okay to want to say yes to something, but knowing deep down that the better option is to say no to something and it is okay.

[24:26] And even if people are a little bit disappointed,

[24:28] like,

[24:29] that's okay too.

[24:31] Adam Koren: I love that. Yeah.

[24:33] Yeah, I can, I can imagine on the other end, if I'm hearing that, hearing someone say, I would love to do that, I would love to say yes and I can't or and I need to say no,[24:46] that that really feels different than like, no, I'm not going to do that.

[24:50] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and you had talked about,

[24:53] you talked about self care a minute ago. And you know, there are lots of different kinds of self care. And if we're talking about financial self care specifically, you mentioned, you know, saying no is one form of self care.

[25:06] I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about more about that. Like how would you describe financial self care? What does that look like?

[25:12] You know, how, how can people really take care of themselves in that way?

[25:16] Adam Koren: Yeah.

[25:18] All right. I love this. So it's going to look different for different folks. Right? So for, for the woman who, there's a woman who like never spends on herself, she's always putting herself last.

[25:28] She's focusing on, perhaps she's focusing on being safe like prioritizing emergency funds or retirement.

[25:35] And then there's the woman who finds herself just shopping compulsively and buying things she doesn't really need.

[25:41] So financial self care can look really different for each of those. And in both cases it involves slowing down a bit and asking ourselves what would truly be nourishing,[25:55] what would be nourishing?

[25:57] And by the way, with that,

[25:59] when finances are tight,

[26:01] I find that often people go first to cutting back on food.

[26:07] And what I see over and over again as I've had those conversations with clients,[26:12] is that it generally not the best thing. Sometimes it needs to happen. Sometimes someone's spending a ton of money on doordash and they really want to cut, cut back on that, sure.

[26:26] But in terms, especially in terms of the groceries and sometimes in terms of restaurants, especially when that is a place where someone really does feel nourished, like it's not just a matter of convenience.

[26:39] So I just wanted to mention that is because it's often the first place people go to cut,

[26:44] and especially in terms of groceries, the amount that we can realistically cut from our budget is really not that much.

[26:54] It's usually one or two or $300 a month. It's not going to make a huge difference, but it's going to actually often feel constricting and restrictive and really affects your quality of life.

[27:11] So for lots of reasons.

[27:14] Oh, and food is just such a primary place we get nourished.

[27:18] So for lots of reasons, I would look elsewhere for things that,

[27:25] if someone's in a place where they need to cut back,

[27:29] look elsewhere first, if at all possible.

[27:32] Christi Gmyr: Well, and when I'm, you know,

[27:34] I'm thinking, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm thinking about, you know, times when I have personally tried to cut back on my grocery bill because I can get add up very quickly.

[27:43] And, you know, one of the things we're talking about is how finances are tied to levels of stress. And I know for me personally, when I am thinking about ways to cut back on my grocery bill, a lot of times it involves going to multiple stores rather than going to,[28:00] you know, just the one store that I like to go to, you know, doing all of these things, which can be effective in maybe saving some money. But it also adds more time, it adds more stress, at least for me personally.

[28:13] And a lot of times it just doesn't stick because at the end of the day, I'm trying to take stress off my plate, not add more to it.

[28:20] Adam Koren: Exactly.

[28:21] Christi Gmyr: Well, and, and with that in mind, I'm also thinking about the other moms who maybe want to feel more in control, but they just don't have the bandwidth.[28:29] And so I'm curious, like, if you have any suggestions of, of systems or tools that actually do make things easier for them.

[28:38] Adam Koren: Yeah. Okay.

[28:40] Yeah. So my favorite tool these days is called Monarch Money.

[28:45] So Monarch is an app that,[28:48] that helps you just really get a handle on your finances. It will.

[28:52] The way it works is you.

[28:53] And, you know, I don't work for them or get any cut from it. It's just this is what I use and what I recommend I find to be helpful.

[29:03] So the way Monarch works is you connect your account,

[29:06] your bank account,

[29:08] your credit cards, PayPal, Venmo, whatever it is.

[29:11] And then,

[29:12] and then Monarch will show you a dashboard of all of your accounts at once so you don't have to log into every different thing.

[29:21] You can just go to Monarch and see all of your accounts at once. That can be super useful. It also shows you all your transactions in one place.

[29:30] And then the third thing that's super useful with it is they have a cash flow page where you can just see your monthly spending and monthly income at a glance and you can look back,

[29:42] you know, over your last number of months and kind of see the trend.

[29:47] And so I've seen so many times going to that cash flow page with client and that can be a real light bulb moment of like,

[29:57] oh, that's why I'm so stressed out.

[29:59] It's like I, you know, I keep spending a little bit more than my income for just as an example or,

[30:07] you know, like that page. I've just seen so many big insights and like, oh, I just need to do this.

[30:13] Like, it can be so illuminating to just take a step back and see the big picture of what's happening with our finances. Just to go back to food for a minute.

[30:24] I think that's part of the,

[30:26] part of the challenge when someone looks to cut back on food, as an example, is it's going too quickly to the small picture. Can I save a hundred dollars here or there?[30:36] Yeah, you probably could.

[30:38] But if you don't really have a sense of the big picture and like, you actually may need to save $2,000 a month, not 100, so 100 isn't going to make a difference or you might be doing fine and actually you don't need to cut back.

[30:52] Like so, So I just really am a passionate advocate for if, if you want and need to get a better handle on your finances is to, is to take a look at the big picture and find out what's truly needed.

[31:07] Christi Gmyr: Well, and you talk about, you know, using this app and for a lot of people it can be this flashbulb moment. And I'm also thinking about,

[31:15] you know, people on the other end of it. So I'm curious about,

[31:19] you know, people who,

[31:21] they want to get a handle on their finances. They know that they really should be other that should work, should be taking

 steps to try to, you know, get a handle on them better.

[31:31] And maybe deep down they have a sense that they really are doing things in a way that isn't super helpful for them and their families.

[31:41] And by combining everything together on one screen, I would imagine that 4 first time can maybe Be scary for some people, the idea of having to actually see that. And maybe there's some avoidance there.

[31:53] So I'm curious, like, what you might say to somebody who comes to you with that.[31:58] Adam Koren: Yeah, yeah, I'm really, I'm really glad you said that.

[32:03] Christi Gmyr: It.

[32:03] Adam Koren: It can be such a. It can be a sobering moment also,

[32:07] and it can be disturbing.

[32:10] Disturbing. Maybe a little strong. But every time,

[32:16] while it can be painful and uncomfortable, every time I do this with a client,

[32:23] they always are grateful afterwards that they looked.

[32:28] It's always better to know what we're dealing with than the worry and the vague sense of, like,

[32:36] I know this isn't quite working,

[32:38] but I'm not sure exactly what.

[32:41] So even if it's difficult and sobering,

[32:44] it's worth it. The other thing I would recommend is to do it with someone,

[32:48] especially if you know that you're likely to get some bad news or it might be hard for you to have some moral support either to have a friend with you, either in person or on the phone, or a partner or family member that you feel supported by or a financial professional.

[33:07] Like,

[33:08] you don't have to do this alone. Like, people are used to not talking about it because it's taboo in our culture and not asking for help,

[33:17] but you can.

[33:19] People. People like to help. And, and some people, like, some people love dealing with their finances. So if that's not the case for you, like, you can.

[33:27] You can find somebody like that,

[33:29] as long as it's someone who you can expect are not. They're not going to judge you.

[33:35] That someone you feel safe with is who I'd recommend.

[33:39] Christi Gmyr: Well, and I would also imagine, you know, a lot of people, by the time they are reaching out to you are maybe in a position where they.

[33:48] They're struggling and they're wanting a change and they're wanting some help and support. And so although that avoidance,

[33:56] you know, the idea of pushing past that avoidance might feel scary, it might also be necessary, you know, because if nothing changes, then. Then nothing changes.

[34:06] Adam Koren: Right.

[34:07] Right.

[34:08] Yeah. I mean, we, we can avoid things like, avoidance is not a bad thing.

[34:14] It's like, you know,

[34:16] often there's just no bandwidth to, to face it. But like I was saying, like,

[34:21] sometimes we gotta.

[34:23] Sometimes we, you know, we hit a point where we just can't keep avoiding it and we have to face it in some way. And sometimes that's life kind of smacking us in the face of, like,

[34:34] wake up.

[34:36] And when it comes to that time,

[34:39] you can, you can have help. Like, yeah, like in the shame that we talked about earlier.

[34:45] Shame.

[34:46] Shame and isolation go together.

[34:48] So when, when we bring things to the light of day, when we just look at what are the actual numbers here and, and we can, and we can bring that spirit of acceptance and okay, let's deal with this.

[35:02] Like that's not a realm that shame lives.

[35:06] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely.

[35:08] So then for people who are wanting to, you know, to feel more grounded,

[35:15] but they're not wanting to add more to their plates, are you able to sing just some like simple,

[35:22] like low effort financial habits that these moms could use for that?

[35:27] Adam Koren: Yeah. Great question.

[35:29] I have a few ideas. One is identifying your money feelings doesn't take any time.[35:35] Just I'm like. And that can bring a little bit of control.

[35:39] I'm feeling stressed, I'm feeling worried, I'm feeling sad that I can't offer this thing to my kid.

[35:47] Just identifying the feelings and letting that be simple is helpful. A second thing is celebrating micro wins doesn't take any time,

[35:58] but can, can really boost our self esteem and this is a place where we can really use some self esteem sometimes.

[36:06] And a micro win can just be something like looking at your bank balance.

[36:11] Like, okay,

[36:13] that, that can take courage.

[36:15] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, absolutely.

[36:16] Adam Koren: And, and then the third thing is asking for help. Yeah, it doesn't really take much time, but can make a huge difference.

[36:22] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

[36:25] Well, and then I guess, you know, one other thing, you know, before we kind of start to wrap up in a few minutes, like one other thing that I'm thinking about and that I'm wondering about are,

[36:33] you know, for so many moms. Well, for so many people. But obviously, you know, we're thinking about our moms here.

[36:39] You know, their finances can be really challenging because of some of the very specific things that we have to deal with. You know,

[36:48] like daycare, for example. Right. Like the huge cost that a lot of working moms have to,

[36:55] you know, have to invest in.

[36:57] And as a result, maybe they're not able to put aside as much into say their retirement or whatnot, that they might like to college, savings, whatever it is.

[37:07] And so I'm wondering what would you say to the mom who feels like maybe she should be further along financially at the stage of life that she's in,

[37:15] you know, and maybe she's not.

[37:17] Adam Koren: Yeah. Yeah.

[37:19] Okay. So the government used to do more for this, companies used to do more for setting people up in terms of pensions and that kind of thing. And, and that's all shifted to us in the last few decades.

[37:33] It's it's all on us,

[37:35] our retirement,

[37:37] our kind of safety.

[37:39] And I don't hear anyone,

[37:44] you know, really talking about that or noticing that. And yet we blame ourselves for not having a million dollars in our retirement account already.

[37:54] So again,

[37:55] I would start with this idea of we should, we should be further ahead and questioning that.

[38:02] We should know what we're doing and questioning that.

[38:05] So,

[38:06] yeah, when we can bring acceptance to where we are,

[38:11] you know, we all want more money.

[38:13] There's nothing wrong with that.

[38:15] But, but just, but just accepting this is where I am now,

[38:20] and it's just a more powerful place to come from,

[38:23] from that place of peace and acceptance, of like, okay, I'm here rather than I should be further.

[38:29] And then desire is great fuel to help us get where we want to go. Like, if you do want to have a million dollars saved by the time you retire,

[38:37] that can be really clarifying for your choices.

[38:40] Christi Gmyr: Yeah, no, absolutely. So, I mean, what I'm hearing you say is a big part of it too, is really paying attention to and maybe challenging any of the beliefs that you might have around money, specifically.

[38:53] Like, first you have to identify what they are and then really try to understand them and then,

[38:57] and then challenge them to see how they are,

[39:00] you know, supporting you or not.

[39:02] Adam Koren: Yep, exactly.

[39:04] Christi Gmyr: Well, this has been all very great. This is very helpful. To your point, money is one of those topics that can be a bit taboo. Not everybody feels like they are comfortable talking about it.

[39:17] And so this has just really been great. And I'm wondering, where can listeners go to learn more about you, learn more about your book, learn more about your work, all of that.

[39:25] Adam Koren: Yeah, thanks.

[39:27] Well, first of all, my book just came out.

[39:30] It's called Gentle Money. You can find it on Amazon.

[39:33] You can look it up@gentlemoneybook.com or my website, which is Adamcorn.com and yeah,

[39:41] if you're suffering around this,

[39:43] around your finances, you really don't need to suffer alone.

[39:47] And I totally love my work.

[39:51] If, if, if what I'm saying is resonating, feel free to, to reach out and I have initial chats with people for free.

[39:57] Christi Gmyr: Okay, great. And I will make sure that I include all of that information in the show notes for anybody who is interested in learning more about you and the work that you do.

[40:09] So before I wrap up for today, if you could leave the listeners with one final message, one final piece of advice, when it comes to money and burnout,

[40:17] what would it be?

[40:19] Adam Koren: Yeah,

[40:20] if you're burned out, it makes sense.

[40:23] It's not your fault.

[40:25] Our culture really sets us up very poorly to succeed with our finances.

[40:31] Our culture sets us up to be stressed,

[40:33] to be overstretched,

[40:36] to not have community.

[40:39] So if you're struggling with some of those things,

[40:43] it's not all on you.

[40:45] It's not your fault.

[40:47] And there's a lot you can do.

[40:49] There's a lot you can do to rally the kind of resources, support,

[40:55] community help,

[40:57] partnership that you want and need,

[41:01] and that will really, truly serve you and your family.

[41:05] And it's worth getting that support when you need it.

[41:08] Christi Gmyr: Okay, great. I love that. Thank you so much. And thank you again so much for being here. I imagine you are probably very busy, you know, just like everybody else, you know, and I really do appreciate you taking the time out of your day to come talk to me.

[41:21] And then, as always, for the moms who are listening, if any of this resonates, if you found any of these things that we talked about

 today to be helpful, to be valuable, you know, please feel free to look at them up.

[41:31] Please share this podcast with any other moms it could maybe use some additional support for,

[41:36] because again, we are all in this together.

[41:41] Adam Koren: Thank you, Christi.